Admitted fraud - PayPal and Chase won’t get money back

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Nov 1, 2017
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#21
This unbelievable tale is worth a full report on elliott.org. I can not believe, but it seems to be true, that once a fraudulent charge occurs the bank is then off the hook for any others until you report it.
 
Likes: Jeanne
Sep 19, 2015
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#22
This unbelievable tale is worth a full report on elliott.org. I can not believe, but it seems to be true, that once a fraudulent charge occurs the bank is then off the hook for any others until you report it.
RCX141 this is a pattern of fraudulent withdrawal by the same person. The law basically says if the customer has to inform the bank of Fraudulent Withdrawal #1 and if they did then Fraudulent Withdrawal #2 would not have happened.

There are time limits to report and hold the bank responsible.

There are time limits for charge backs on credit cards. If I notice now that I did not get something that was supposed to be delivered in March 2018 I cannot dispute the charge today in December.

These laws were written before PayPal and such existed. The scammers know that people may not notice a $1 charge and take advantage of it.
 

AMA

Verified Member
Dec 11, 2014
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#23
How are you able to tell it is the "same person" for both transactions? What proof do you or Paypal have of this? If there is no actual proof that both transactions were made by the same person, then the 60-day clock for the November transaction is still ticking.
 
Likes: Mel65

Neil Maley

Moderator
Staff Member
Advocate
Dec 27, 2014
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www.promalvacations.com
#25
This unbelievable tale is worth a full report on elliott.org. I can not believe, but it seems to be true, that once a fraudulent charge occurs the bank is then off the hook for any others until you report it.
I agree but the process for going through Executives has to be done for the writers to look at this.

Op, use our PayPal contacts and escalate. One executive at a time once a week.
 
Mar 14, 2018
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#26
From what I can tell, Paypal has the same rules as Chase (which makes sense since the regulation applies to participants in electronic transfers.) The 60 day period starts from the day the financial institution sends the statement. So if the scammer opened a new Paypal account for which the OP did not receive statements, Paypal should be liable for the fraudulent transfer. If, on the other hand, they hacked into his existing Paypal account, the OP will probably have the same problem with Paypal that they had with Chase.
 

Barry Graham

Administrator
Staff Member
Director
Jan 7, 2015
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#27
I have several questions:
  1. Like @AMA I am still not certain from what I see here that it was the same person that made both withdrawals. Could you tell with 100% certainty by the info that PayPal gave you that it was the same person?
  2. My understanding from your first post is that one was a direct debit from your account, one was a PayPal debit. Did I get that wrong?
  3. Usually in order to link a savings account with PayPal, you have to prove that the account in question is yours, for example by verifying two small deposits or maybe they now have the system where you can authenticate using your username and password. So how would that person have been able to do this without having access to your online savings account?
  4. Unless your own PayPal account is involved, why do you have to go after PayPal? This is between you and your bank. Why is it your responsibity rather than your bank's to be going after PayPal?
 
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mmb

Verified Member
Jan 20, 2015
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#28
I am interested in hearing how PayPal can excuse this — could I add any unrelated bank account to a PayPal account?
I admit, I am lost and still don’t understand what happened.
-Someone gained access to OPs Paypal account ?
-They added OPs savings account to the PP account?
-Then they used the OPs money to buy something, using funds in the savings account ?
-That would mean they have the OPs PP password.
-Sounds to me like it is someone close enough to have/get this info. They needed the PP PW And savings account bank routing number and account number, right?
 
Likes: Mel65
Sep 19, 2015
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#29
Paypal should not allow a person to add another person's account. I should not be able to add the account of Bill Gates, John Doe or any other person that is not me.

It sounds as if the person used the bank routing and account number and there was no is verification— so if I add John Doe’s account is there no step that checks my id versus the name on the account?

So if my name is Ima Scammer and my email address is Ima@scam.com and set up a PayPal but later add John Doe’s bank account, how does PayPal verify the ID?

Once the bank account in fraudulently added the scammer transferred money out — no need for any other password as I added someone else’s account and transferred the money from John Doe’s savings directly to another account of mine.
 

mmb

Verified Member
Jan 20, 2015
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#30
Hence, I argue that someone has the OPs PW and signs into his PP account.
I don’t think there is any other way to accomplish this scenario, as described.
(Again, I’m not sure I totally understand what happened.)
I balance ALL of my accounts to the penny. Sometimes this is hard, especially in cities like Denver who are so green they dot want to give you a receipt. Or if you lose a receipt you have to price together from the clues what you bought where to verify the charge.
My kids think I’m OCD but I don’t want a scenario like this to fall into my lap
 
Likes: SierraRose49
Mar 23, 2015
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#31
I know that when I linked my account to my PayPal, PayPal sent small $1 or less, I forget the exact amount, transaction to verify the validity of the information. So, someone somehow go tyour savings account and routing number (someone you know? sent a check to? that is pretty specific information for someone to just randomly obtain) and added it as a payment source to their PP account and then... what? Used it to buy something for $1100 or what? You can't withdraw money in cash from someone's PP account, right? When I've had to dispute things with PP, I have to say, it was handled very quickly and efficiently. I know that not everyone here agrees or has had that experience, but it's odd to me that they're dismissive of this. Use the form on their site so you start having a paper trail with them instead of the phone.
 
Mar 23, 2015
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#32
This unbelievable tale is worth a full report on elliott.org. I can not believe, but it seems to be true, that once a fraudulent charge occurs the bank is then off the hook for any others until you report it.
My credit union has on numerous occasions called to verify a charge of under $2 and the first time I laughed and they said, "the bad guys like to verify that it's a valid account with a charge nobody will notice or worry about; the next one could be much higher." Now I watch for those random $1.56 sent charges that occasionally appear!
 
Likes: Nancy
Mar 23, 2015
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#33
RCX141 this is a pattern of fraudulent withdrawal by the same person. The law basically says if the customer has to inform the bank of Fraudulent Withdrawal #1 and if they did then Fraudulent Withdrawal #2 would not have happened.

There are time limits to report and hold the bank responsible.

There are time limits for charge backs on credit cards. If I notice now that I did not get something that was supposed to be delivered in March 2018 I cannot dispute the charge today in December.

These laws were written before PayPal and such existed. The scammers know that people may not notice a $1 charge and take advantage of it.
This scammer also was smart in waiting exactly 60 days. This is someone who knows the rules and what they're doing!
 
Sep 19, 2015
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#37
That's true. For both PayPal and Chase to be giving the OP a hard time, there might be something we don't know about.
I remember a friend having unauthorized withdrawals from her bank account, she remembered that a bank statement went missing. It turned out that a relative of someone that lived in the same building stole her mail and made authorized withdrawals. This one was caught.
 
Likes: Neil Maley

mmb

Verified Member
Jan 20, 2015
903
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#38
Paypal should not allow a person to add another person's account. I should not be able to add the account of Bill Gates, John Doe or any other person that is not me.

It sounds as if the person used the bank routing and account number and there was no is verification— so if I add John Doe’s account is there no step that checks my id versus the name on the account?

So if my name is Ima Scammer and my email address is Ima@scam.com and set up a PayPal but later add John Doe’s bank account, how does PayPal verify the ID?

Once the bank account in fraudulently added the scammer transferred money out — no need for any other password as I added someone else’s account and transferred the money from John Doe’s savings directly to another account of mine.
This is making me connect the dots in all the Amazon accounts when someone adds someone else’s credit card or bank account to their own account.
Amazon seems to recognize this as a big problem and just shuts it all down by closing the accounts of all people involved.
 

jsn55

Verified Member
Dec 26, 2014
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#39
Could be a bank hack, someone got hold of an old statement (hint shred everything old), many ways to get information.
Do you think there's a human being in this country who throws confidential information in the trash? Who doesn't shred it? I'll bet even the farmers in Minnesota shred all their confidential docs. Besides, the shreds make good chicken beds.