Capital One is aiding in online scams.

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Jun 8, 2021
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I purchased a genuine fox fur blanket online and received a synthetic piece of rag instead. Seller said to pay and mail it back to China or no refund. Filed a dispute with capital one. They made me fill out a form with a whole grip of questions and provide a whole grip of evidence, which I did. They temporarily credited my account pending investigation. Few weeks later they recharged the amount because the seller “provided tracking showing that the product was delivered”. I spent many hours on the phone explaining that this is a bait and switch scam and that I shouldn’t have to pay to ship this to China because this is not my fault in any way. Capital One kept insisting that they can’t do anything until I ship this back or provide an authentication letter from a reputable seller of similar products because those are mastercards rules. I asked if I can speak to MasterCard to explain the case and that I cannot obtain such a letter of authentication because there’s no such store where I live and even if there was, no one would do such a ridiculous authentication for free... so it’s either pay to ship it back or pay to get that letter which I can’t even do due to where I am located and the nature of the product. Furthermore, they are requesting for me to provide a letter of authentication while at the same time the only thing that the seller had to provide was a tracking number. Seller was not asked to provide any proof of authenticity or anything even remotely similar. Capital One responded that MasterCard wouldn’t know what to do with this because it’s Capital Ones responsibility to deal with this. Numerous reps fully admitted that they are aware of these scams and that they see them daily, but are unwilling to do anything about them. They drove me hysterical numerous times and in the heat of passion I used pretty aggressive language with profanities and stuff. After days of dealing with this and not coming to any resolution, I gave in and purchased a shipping label to China and sent the “product” back. When I provided the tracking information to capital one, they said they this case is closed and I’m SOL. After many more hours of heated conversations with multiple reps, I was able to find a rep that figured out a way to reopen the case and again temporarily credited this amount back to my card. I am still waiting for the final determination on that case, but today I received a letter from capital one saying that because I used inappropriate language which they drove me to do, they are closing all of my account a with them.
 

Alexander Pahany

Staff Member
Forum Moderator
Jan 6, 2021
644
2,103
Houston, TX
I think you’ve pretty much solved your own problem here, even if it doesn’t turn out completely the way you had hoped.

The dispute was re-opened, so you’ll have to wait until the conclusion of it to see if you’ll ultimately be responsible for the cost of the merchandise.

Unfortunately, due to your behavior and treatment of the customer service agents, Capital One has opted to remove you from its customer base per its terms of service.

I’m not sure what your desired outcome is here—you’ve already burned your CapOne bridge, so to speak.
 
Jun 8, 2021
7
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I think you’ve pretty much solved your own problem here, even if it doesn’t turn out completely the way you had hoped.

The dispute was re-opened, so you’ll have to wait until the conclusion of it to see if you’ll ultimately be responsible for the cost of the merchandise.

Unfortunately, due to your behavior and treatment of the customer service agents, Capital One has opted to remove you from its customer base per its terms of service.

I’m not sure what your desired outcome is here—you’ve already burned your CapOne bridge, so to speak.
To be completely honest, I was going to close my accounts myself because of the way they treated me. The point is that they closed the accounts before the case was concluded, but that is not even the main issue I have with this.... the main issue is that they know that this is going on and are unwilling to do anything about it... while I was on the phone with one of the reps, he actually admitted that he recently dealt with a customer who paid $4000 for an RV and received a cheap bracelet and how Capital One STILL wouldn’t do anything about it. This is not right! Instead of defending their customers, they are knowingly aiding oversees scammers. There have to be some kind of measures that people could take against this!
 

Alexander Pahany

Staff Member
Forum Moderator
Jan 6, 2021
644
2,103
Houston, TX
To be completely honest, I was going to close my accounts myself because of the way they treated me. The point is that they closed the accounts before the case was concluded, but that is not even the main issue I have with this.... the main issue is that they know that this is going on and are unwilling to do anything about it... while I was on the phone with one of the reps, he actually admitted that he recently dealt with a customer who paid $4000 for an RV and received a cheap bracelet and how Capital One STILL wouldn’t do anything about it. This is not right! Instead of defending their customers, they are knowingly aiding oversees scammers. There have to be some kind of measures that people could take against this!
To say they are “knowingly aiding overseas scammers” might be a little misguided. They are following their customers’ instructions. You went to a website, saw something you wanted, and typed in your card number and asked CapOne to pay for it on your behalf. They did just that. How many millions of transactions does CapOne process on a daily basis? Do you think they know what each one is? Nope. They are following the instructions of their customers, so some responsibility must lie with the customer. If it looks too good to be true, in the case of the product you bought or the RV someone thought they were buying, it probably is. Double the chances if it’s coming from China.
 
Jun 8, 2021
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You’re missing my point entirely. When I say that they are knowingly doing this, I am referring to multiple confirmations of this fact by multiple representatives.

Also, the dispute process exists for a reason and is supposed to be a safety net for these instances. The product received is nowhere near what was described and that is grounds for a dispute. Capitalone is NOT following the customers instructions in a dispute case.

According to them, they are following Mastercards instructions, but MasterCard has no idea that this is going on and is not to be contacted directly.

Further, this is not about pointing fingers about who was stupid enough to buy what... the product I bought did not say anything about it being shipped from China and the information that was presented was very detailed as to what I was supposed to receive with pictures of the manufacturing process and a money back guarantee.

This is about the fact that my financial institution is supposed to protect me instead of a scammer and they are actually doing the complete opposite.

If I had not been aggressive in my conversations with the reps and allowed them to talk over me in a condescending manner, then I would not have been able to reopen the case and would be out the initial cost of the product, the shipping charge for sending it back because Capital One made me do it and days with of wasted time and stress! ... but at least the representatives feelings would be intact and I would have the privilege of keeping my accounts to possibly be bent over again in the future.

But as I said, it is not about the money or the accounts. It is the principle of the matter. What they are doing is wrong and they have to be held accountable for this.
 
Nov 27, 2019
247
687
"Also, the dispute process exists for a reason and is supposed to be a safety net for these instances. The product received is nowhere near what was described and that is grounds for a dispute. "

True, but only if the vendor is within 100 miles of the card holder's mailing address, which doesn't sound like is true in this case. So, they're not under any legal obligation to help you. You were scammed, and it doesn't sound like you've gotten very good customer service from CapOne. That doesn't mean that they're "aiding in online scams," though. Declining to help you when they're not obliged to is entirely different from "aiding" your scammer.
 
Jun 8, 2021
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"Also, the dispute process exists for a reason and is supposed to be a safety net for these instances. The product received is nowhere near what was described and that is grounds for a dispute. "

True, but only if the vendor is within 100 miles of the card holder's mailing address, which doesn't sound like is true in this case. So, they're not under any legal obligation to help you. You were scammed, and it doesn't sound like you've gotten very good customer service from CapOne. That doesn't mean that they're "aiding in online scams," though. Declining to help you when they're not obliged to is entirely different from "aiding" your scammer.
I am actually trying to find where they have in their TOS the restrictions/guidelines on disputes (ex. 100 miles radius that you mentioned) and would appreciate if you could point me in the right direction.
 

Comicman

Jul 13, 2020
1,011
2,095
I am pretty sure the credit card is following the process. When you buy like this, it says that you must send back the item for a refund. I would and that you should add tracking because you need to prove it was received. This is the way this is done. So mail it back and get your refund.
I might ask why should the credit card believe you over the sender. Maybe the sender is a customer too.
The rules say if you want a refund you have to return it to the seller. Honestly why should you get both your item and your money back,even it the item is wrong or fake.
This is the exact reason why I refuse to buy from sellers overseas …. especially India and China.
Yes I agree this sucks. But then a lot of things are not fair. If you look back you will see a few old threads like yours and almost all bought from China.
 
Nov 27, 2019
247
687
I am actually trying to find where they have in their TOS the restrictions/guidelines on disputes (ex. 100 miles radius that you mentioned) and would appreciate if you could point me in the right direction.
Alexander cited the law above. Technically, there's no requirement that they entertain a dispute for quality of goods and services, or credit you back. The law just says that (if you've made a good faith effort to resolve the issue with the vendor, and the vendor is within 100 miles of you), you have the same right to sue the credit card company as you do the vendor. So, for example, imagine that you use your card to pay buy a diamond from a local jeweler, and it turns out the diamond's a fake. You sue the jeweler, and win, but the jeweler has gone bankrupt, so you can't recover anything. The law allows you to sue the credit card company as well, thereby providing a way to be made whole, even if you can't collect from the vendor.
 
Jun 8, 2021
7
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I am pretty sure the credit card is following the process. When you buy like this, it says that you must send back the item for a refund. I would and that you should add tracking because you need to prove it was received. This is the way this is done. So mail it back and get your refund.
I might ask why should the credit card believe you over the sender. Maybe the sender is a customer too.
The rules say if you want a refund you have to return it to the seller. Honestly why should you get both your item and your money back,even it the item is wrong or fake.
This is the exact reason why I refuse to buy from sellers overseas …. especially India and China.
Yes I agree this sucks. But then a lot of things are not fair. If you look back you will see a few old threads like yours and almost all bought from China.
That’s the thing, they are not even consistent with following their own process. I’m not going to go into detail on how I was given the wrong information several occasions, but one of those resulted in them closing the case after telling me to ship it back to move forward with the case. So I shipped it back, went back and uploaded tracking, only to be told to screw off.

As I already mentioned, there was no mention as to where the item would be coming from and I never wanted to keep the item because it is basically trash. I was willing to ship it back immediately if the shipping charge was covered by the seller because the item was not what I ordered. It’s like ordering pants and getting a hairbrush and being told that because You received a hairbrush the sellers responsibility to produce pants is fulfilled and if you do not agree then find a retailer to officially confirm on their letterhead that a hairbrush does not equal pants.

Also, the way one of the reps interpreted their shipping and return policy Implied that there would be no shipping charge to return it. Because the policy said that “at most there’s only one shipping charge including returns, but because of the cost of the item shipping is free”
Regardless, it is because there are many cases just like mine, that it pushes my buttons so much. Their “policy” is one sided in favor of the merchant where I have to provide my first born and the deed to my house and all the merchant has to do is provide tracking for something....
 

weihlac

Verified Member
Jun 30, 2017
3,471
5,646
Maui Hawaii
I purchased a genuine fox fur blanket online and received a synthetic piece of rag instead. Seller said to pay and mail it back to China or no refund. Filed a dispute with capital one. They made me fill out a form with a whole grip of questions and provide a whole grip of evidence, which I did. They temporarily credited my account pending investigation. Few weeks later they recharged the amount because the seller “provided tracking showing that the product was delivered”. I spent many hours on the phone explaining that this is a bait and switch scam and that I shouldn’t have to pay to ship this to China because this is not my fault in any way. Capital One kept insisting that they can’t do anything until I ship this back or provide an authentication letter from a reputable seller of similar products because those are mastercards rules. I asked if I can speak to MasterCard to explain the case and that I cannot obtain such a letter of authentication because there’s no such store where I live and even if there was, no one would do such a ridiculous authentication for free... so it’s either pay to ship it back or pay to get that letter which I can’t even do due to where I am located and the nature of the product. Furthermore, they are requesting for me to provide a letter of authentication while at the same time the only thing that the seller had to provide was a tracking number. Seller was not asked to provide any proof of authenticity or anything even remotely similar. Capital One responded that MasterCard wouldn’t know what to do with this because it’s Capital Ones responsibility to deal with this. Numerous reps fully admitted that they are aware of these scams and that they see them daily, but are unwilling to do anything about them. They drove me hysterical numerous times and in the heat of passion I used pretty aggressive language with profanities and stuff. After days of dealing with this and not coming to any resolution, I gave in and purchased a shipping label to China and sent the “product” back. When I provided the tracking information to capital one, they said they this case is closed and I’m SOL. After many more hours of heated conversations with multiple reps, I was able to find a rep that figured out a way to reopen the case and again temporarily credited this amount back to my card. I am still waiting for the final determination on that case, but today I received a letter from capital one saying that because I used inappropriate language which they drove me to do, they are closing all of my account a with them.
If you do send the item back you should be prepared for the possibility that no refund is provided. However, if you do not return the item, with tracking and delivery verification, there is no chance you will get a refund.

These off-shore (esp Chinese) sellers provide fake "goods" all the time. It is a multi-multi-million dollar business model that works. They simply close up one website and reopen with a new web address the same day. They are impossible to track and the US has no leverage over them and China has no interest in stopping this inflow of foreign currency. The credit card companies get their commissions either way.
 
Jun 8, 2021
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If you do send the item back you should be prepared for the possibility that no refund is provided. However, if you do not return the item, with tracking and delivery verification, there is no chance you will get a refund.

These off-shore (esp Chinese) sellers provide fake "goods" all the time. It is a multi-multi-million dollar business model that works. They simply close up one website and reopen with a new web address the same day. They are impossible to track and the US has no leverage over them and China has no interest in stopping this inflow of foreign currency. The credit card companies get their commissions either way.
I already sent it back. That’s when promptly closed the case and tried to brush me off which led me to go off on them because now I was out this piece of junk, shipping money and the original amount of the purchase...

That is what I mean when I say that they are aiding in these scams because they can just do a chargeback on the merchant, but because they get they cut of these transactions, they are making it as difficult as possible on the buyer and as easy as possible on the merchant.
 
Jun 24, 2019
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This thread (and perhaps Capital One) may be conflating a credit card issuer's obligation to investigate a billing error, including "a reflection on a statement of goods or services not accepted by the obligor or his designee or not delivered to the obligor or his designee in accordance with the agreement made at the time of a transaction" (15 USC 1666(b)(3)) with the abolition of the holder in due course rule for certain transactions (15 USC 1666i(a)). It is only the latter which has the $50/100 mile limitation. Section 1666i is also limited to the amount of credit still otstanding; in other words, if you have paid that credit card bill before you receive the non-conforming goods or services, you have no claim under Section 1666i, but you may still have a claim under Section 1666(b).

I'm sympathetic with OP's problem, as we, too, have bought stuff that turned out to be worthless and from China, despite an American address, in some cases an address here in Los Angeles County. And we have had credit card companies try to argue about where the transaction took place to get beyond the 100 mile rule. Having said that, it does appear from OP's story that OP has burned his Captal One bridge. I understand the frustration of speaking with someone in a distant land who has no authority, even if he had the inclination, to actually solve problems.

At the time of the adoption of the Fair Credit Billing Act, there was considerable resistance from banks to give up their status as holders-in-due-course; the example frequently advanced by one writer was that if a customer ordered a pink Cadillac (as Elvis had one), and received a black Cadillac instead, the bank ought not be in the middle of the dispute between the customer and the car dealer. That argument morphed into wheher the delivery of the black Cadillac was a billing error (the assumption was that the color of the car had been specified in the contract) or simply a dispute, limited by the aount of credit still oustanding. When a bank is dealing with an overseas vendor, perhaps one who has closed its doors under that name, and settlement of the claim in the customer's favor requires the bank to write a check from its own funds, banks will get difficult.
 
Sep 12, 2018
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But as I said, it is not about the money or the accounts. It is the principle of the matter. What they are doing is wrong and they have to be held accountable for this.

This is a fantastic site staffed by volunteers who have a great deal of knowledge and experience, and who genuinely want to help.

That said, it has also evolved from a site that fought against the immoral treatment of consumers by businesses regardless of the fine print into one that largely supports the idea that the terms and conditions are the moral authority. To a certain extent, they’re right - you agreed to Capital Ones terms when you became a cardholder. But what’s happening here doesn’t seem to be in the spirit of what’s intended to be the protection offered by using a credit card to make a purchase.

My recommendation is to email Capital One executives (you can do this because of the hard work of the volunteers here) and lay out the facts clearly, briefly, and factually: you bought in good faith, didn’t get what you paid for, you can prove it, and you followed their instructions without getting the help you need. It’s worth a try.

You may have burned your bridge, and if so, quite frankly, that’s on you. Being nasty to customer service people has never worked, and it won’t start now. But I wish you luck.
 

Alexander Pahany

Staff Member
Forum Moderator
Jan 6, 2021
644
2,103
Houston, TX
That said, it has also evolved from a site that fought against the immoral treatment of consumers by businesses regardless of the fine print into one that largely supports the idea that the terms and conditions are the moral authority.
All you need to do to find examples of advocates here offering advice to consumers who have been wronged, regardless of a company’s terms and conditions, is to read some threads.

When an individual has berated customer service to the point that the company has terminated the account, as has happened with the OP, you will instead see more realistic advice.
 
Jun 24, 2019
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This is a fantastic site staffed by volunteers who have a great deal of knowledge and experience, and who genuinely want to help.

That said, it has also evolved from a site that fought against the immoral treatment of consumers by businesses regardless of the fine print into one that largely supports the idea that the terms and conditions are the moral authority. To a certain extent, they’re right - you agreed to Capital Ones terms when you became a cardholder. But what’s happening here doesn’t seem to be in the spirit of what’s intended to be the protection offered by using a credit card to make a purchase.

My recommendation is to email Capital One executives (you can do this because of the hard work of the volunteers here) and lay out the facts clearly, briefly, and factually: you bought in good faith, didn’t get what you paid for, you can prove it, and you followed their instructions without getting the help you need. It’s worth a try.

You may have burned your bridge, and if so, quite frankly, that’s on you. Being nasty to customer service people has never worked, and it won’t start now. But I wish you luck.
I don't describe most of the problems the volunteers see here in moral or ethical terms, although there are surely some. People are entitled to enter into agreements and agree to be bound by the terms. I don't see anything immoral in someone, consumer or business, demanding that the other side be held to the agreement they reached. We often advise consumers on how to enforce the rules, such as how to get DOT to get airlines to make refunds. In this particular instance, the agreement is governed by law, a pro-consumer law passed around 1974 which decidely aided consumers in disputes. (I have a long story about my minor participation in that change.) Our OP has been wronged, but Capital One (I don't have their card in my wallet) is not a guarantor. I could argue, perhaps, that our OP has a billing error and Capital One was wrong in how it treated our OP, but I hardly see that in moral or ethical terms.
 

Skippy

May 30, 2019
921
2,450
I am sympathetic to the OP being scammed but have no sympathy remaining for the OP.

Those people that the OP yelled at are people that were doing their jobs. They followed company policy, even if the policy is a bad one. Frontline customer service representatives don't deserve that kind of treatment from anyone, regardless of the principle. Period.

What the OP should have done after not getting what the OP had thought he/she should have got from CapOne was to calm down, write a polite email as explained in Post #17. That's good advice now, although if I were working at CapOne, I'd have by now placed a Do Not Support flag on the account meaning: no Goodwill Gestures, no account reinstatement, nothing -- even a retail bank relationship would be shut down.

In the meantime:
  • The OP should recognize that he/she was scammed by a merchant, not a bank. Take a close look at how purchase decisions are made, research the merchant's history, don't buy anything advertised on sites that are not trusted (including FB). If something seems to be good to be true, it is.

  • The OP should pull a copy of his/her credit report to confirm that the CapOne account is closed. The credit report should show "account closed by the account issuer" or similar language.
BTW, another option is to file a complaint to the CFPB & see where that goes.
 
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