Physical Assault on 68yr old man by c35yo on Epic

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technomage1

Verified Member
Jan 5, 2015
1,999
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#42
LOL. Anyone who thinks 16 people can still fit on an elevator is in serious denial. Look at the obesity rates in this country and worldwide. Now add cruise ship to the mix and I can just about guarantee you there were a few obese/overweight people on that elevator. Whale sightings are everyday occurrences even if you are not cruising Alaska. LOL.
But I agree with those who are advising giving up as there is just not enough info to know what to think or what really happened.
Average capacity by weight is 2500 lbs. The average person is considered to be 150lbs. Perhaps that should be higher now, but honestly in the standard size car most people are going to stop entering around 12 or so, which is an average weight of 208 lbs per person. 16 is shoulder to shoulder, no one breathe kind of tight. Even if some people are overweight, the rated capacity does have a safety factor included.
To me, if there is room in the car it's the height of rudeness not to let people on. I dislike being jammed up next to people just as much as anyone. But it's public transport, not a private car. Nearly anyone can tolerate being uncomfortable for a few minutes. Those that can't - sorry, elevators may not be for you or you need to wait for another car (as the mother did).
If the OP had room to enter and turn around, and the lady had room to stop the doors from closing and exit, then there was room in the car for the OP and his wife. The mother felt it was too much and left - which is fine. She dealt with her problem, which is fine.
Lest I sound harsh - I am extremely nervous in crowds. I don't go out much as a result, and tend to shop at odd hours to avoid people. I'll go to events or parks at low times too. I don't throw a fit or demand others accommodate me. I work around what is my problem.
 
Sep 22, 2014
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#44
Average capacity by weight is 2500 lbs. The average person is considered to be 150lbs. Perhaps that should be higher now, but honestly in the standard size car most people are going to stop entering around 12 or so, which is an average weight of 208 lbs per person. 16 is shoulder to shoulder, no one breathe kind of tight. Even if some people are overweight, the rated capacity does have a safety factor included.
To me, if there is room in the car it's the height of rudeness not to let people on. I dislike being jammed up next to people just as much as anyone. But it's public transport, not a private car. Nearly anyone can tolerate being uncomfortable for a few minutes. Those that can't - sorry, elevators may not be for you or you need to wait for another car (as the mother did).
If the OP had room to enter and turn around, and the lady had room to stop the doors from closing and exit, then there was room in the car for the OP and his wife. The mother felt it was too much and left - which is fine. She dealt with her problem, which is fine.
Lest I sound harsh - I am extremely nervous in crowds. I don't go out much as a result, and tend to shop at odd hours to avoid people. I'll go to events or parks at low times too. I don't throw a fit or demand others accommodate me. I work around what is my problem.
There is an inherent flaw in your reasoning that can not be obfuscated with elevator design statistics. If an elderly woman, who is already on the elevator, felt so "compressed" by the entrance of a new passenger that she felt it necessary to exit the car, clearly there was a breach of traditional elevator etiquette by the new arrival. This invloves more than just physical "personal space". It also involves a change in the traditional value system that put woman & children and elderly & handicapped, first.

I remember once being ashore from a cruise ship, waiting for a tour bus. I arrived 15 minutes early there were about 10 mobility impaired seniors already there. Over the next 10 minutes younger and more fit people began arriving. When the bus pulled up the fittest, youngest, and last to arrive rushed to board before everyone else. I personally blocked their boarding and called up those who had been there first. I personally got them boarded and then told the last to arrive it was now their turn. Their pack leader asked me "who made you the policeman?" I replied: "originally the federal, state and local governments, but now I'm self appointed."

I've observed the same thing happen many times when cruisers using mobility impaired equipment, waiting for an elevator, are shoved aside by the youngest and fittest.

Just because some folks, like yourself, are better able to handle a few minutes on a crowded elevator than others, does not make it acceptable by traditional values. Perhaps, we are truly witnessing a societal change in our standards. But, the neo modern arbiters of the new ethos should not expect the traditionalists to "go quietly into the night."

The saddest but best example was when a senior couple celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary were shoved off the life boat on the Costa Concordia by young fit Russian passengers who said they'd had a full life and should make room for the young. The couple went back to their cabin and were the last bodies to be retrieved from the wreckage, still bound together in an embrace.
 
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Neil Maley

Moderator
Staff Member
Advocate
Dec 27, 2014
11,982
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www.promalvacations.com
#45
Why are we arguing? We have no business being involved with this anyway. McNeal gave the writer the correct advice- report it to the FBI which the LW doesn't want to do.
Not a single one of us is qualified to give this LW any advice except to go to law enforcement. We aren't qualified to speculate on what was or wasn't said. We weren't there and don't work for the cruise line.
How about if we just stop posting the thread and let it die?
 

technomage1

Verified Member
Jan 5, 2015
1,999
3,413
113
#46
There is an inherent flaw in your reasoning that can not be obfuscated with elevator design statistics. If an elderly woman, who is already on the elevator, felt so "compressed" by the entrance of a new passenger that she felt it necessary to exit the car, clearly there was a breach of traditional elevator etiquette by the new arrival. This invloves more than just physical "personal space". It also involves a change in the traditional value system that put woman & children and elderly & handicapped, first.

I remember once being ashore from a cruise ship, waiting for a tour bus. I arrived 15 minutes early there were about 10 mobility impaired seniors already there. Over the next 10 minutes younger and more fit people began arriving. When the bus pulled up the fittest, youngest, and last to arrive rushed to board before everyone else. I personally blocked their boarding and called up those who had been there first. I personally got them boarded and then told the last to arrive it was now their turn. Their pack leader asked me "who made you the policeman?" I replied: "originally the federal, state and local governments, but now I'm self appointed."

I've observed the same thing happen many times when cruisers using mobility impaired equipment, waiting for an elevator, are shoved aside by the youngest and fittest.

Just because some folks, like yourself, are better able to handle a few minutes on a crowded elevator than others, does not make it acceptable by traditional values. Perhaps, we are truly witnessing a societal change in our standards. But, the neo modern arbiters of the new ethos should not expect the traditionalists to "go quietly into the night."

The saddest but best example was when a senior couple celebrating their 50th wedding anniversary were shoved off the life boat on the Costa Concordia by young fit Russian passengers who said they'd had a full life and should make room for the young. The couple went back to their cabin and were the last bodies to be retrieved from the wreckage, still bound together in an embrace.
The flaw in your reasoning is that the OP is elderly himself - and presumably around the same age or older than the woman who got off (35 year old son = 55-65 year old mother, on average). He didn't rush ahead of anyone or push anyone out of his way to enter the car.

If you want to go with "traditional" etiquette - then the younger man who created the fuss and assaulted the OP should've exited the car if the mother felt it was crowded - not the older OP. But again - we're talking about "feelings" which are subjective. Crowded cars make me as nervous as anyone - probably more than most. But if you want to ride it, you deal with it. Otherwise you wait for an empty car yourself or take the stairs. But someone standing close to you is to be expected on an elevator regardless of age. Unpleasant but you put up with it or adapt.

I once read of a rape survivor who was afraid to ride an elevator alone with men. No one can blame her for that response. So she took the stairs or waited for another car until she was able to overcome her fear. It took a while - in fact she had to move apartments to be on a lower floor so she could take the stairs - but she didn't put her problem on anyone else.

Expecting otherwise or blocking someone from entering the car is like putting a bag down on the bus or train seat next to you so no one will sit there when there are people standing.

Incidentally, "traditional" etiquette would dictate the elderly man on the Costa Concordia would voluntarily give up his seat to the younger woman at least - as Isador Straus did on the Titanic to allow women and children to go first. His wife Ida stayed with him, saying "We have lived together for many years. Where you go, I go". That doesn't excuse forcing someone off, but the knife of "traditional etiquette" cuts both ways.
 
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Sep 22, 2014
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#47
The flaw in your reasoning is that the OP is elderly himself - and presumably around the same age or older than the woman who got off (35 year old son = 55-65 year old mother, on average). He didn't rush ahead of anyone or push anyone out of his way to enter the car.

If you want to go with "traditional" etiquette - then the younger man who created the fuss and assaulted the OP should've exited the car if the mother felt it was crowded - not the older OP. But again - we're talking about "feelings" which are subjective. Crowded cars make me as nervous as anyone - probably more than most. But if you want to ride it, you deal with it. Otherwise you wait for an empty car yourself or take the stairs. But someone standing close to you is to be expected on an elevator regardless of age. Unpleasant but you put up with it or adapt.

I once read of a rape survivor who was afraid to ride an elevator alone with men. No one can blame her for that response. So she took the stairs or waited for another car until she was able to overcome her fear. It took a while - in fact she had to move apartments to be on a lower floor so she could take the stairs - but she didn't put her problem on anyone else.

Expecting otherwise or blocking someone from entering the car is like putting a bag down on the bus or train seat next to you so no one will sit there when there are people standing.

Incidentally, "traditional" etiquette would dictate the elderly man on the Costa Concordia would voluntarily give up his seat to the younger woman at least - as Isador Straus did on the Titanic to allow women and children to go first. His wife Ida stayed with him, saying "We have lived together for many years. Where you go, I go". That doesn't excuse forcing someone off, but the knife of "traditional etiquette" cuts both ways.
I guess you find it impossible to admit that no one on this thread knows what really did happen. Yet, we are being asked to find fault, not with an alleged Assaulter & Batterer, but rather with the cruise line that allegedly failed to run a proper investigation and file a criminal complaint against the alleged perpetrator. We have nothing (zero, nada, nil, etc) accept the OPs suspicion that NCL did not do a proper job. I gave the OP the best advice under present circumstances: File a complaint with the FBI but be careful to not prevaricate and leave himself open to prosecution for the crime of lying to a federal officer. He decided not to do so.
 
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Grant Ritchie

Dependable adequacy :-)
Oct 1, 2014
1,592
1,019
113
#50
How do you report a whole thread?
Well, there's a method to my madness. There were several questionable posts. None of them outrageously bad, but... questionable. By "reporting" the whole thing, I get everybody thinking that I might be referring to them. And it worked! I've already heard from two posters who thought they might be the guilty parties. I love it! :p

Please understand. I try to give you guys as much latitude as I can. No one likes someone looking over their shoulder, but I have to try, as diplomatically as possible, to nudge people toward a certain type of behavior. I won't always succeed, but I'll always try. ;)
 
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