1. Hi Guest, welcome to the help forum. You can get fast answers to your customer service questions here. We have a dedicated team of advocates who are ready to help. Just go to the section that matches your question and ask us!
    Dismiss Notice
  2. If you've posted a question or issue for our advocates to assist with, please be sure to check back frequently for responses and requests for clarification.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Did you know you can get email notifications when something new posts to your favorite forum? It's easy. Just click the "watch" link right next to the "post new thread" button at the top of your favorite forum. The rest is easy. Now you'll never miss another conversation.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Want to become an expert user? Drop by the How to use this forum section and all will be revealed. We'll show you how to make the most of your experience.
    Dismiss Notice

National Car rental insurance/Chase Sapphire CDW issues

Discussion in 'Ent/Nat/Alamo' started by rjin228, Jul 22, 2016.

  1. rjin228

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    7
    I recently rented a car through the National Car Rental Company and I had a car accident at the end of May 2016 and the repair estimate is over $16K. I submitted the long list of required documents to Chase Sapphire Car Rental CDW, since I declined CDW from National and one of the documents I included was a damage repair estimate. Chase then requested that I request a paid invoice for the repair from National. National sent me an email saying that they decided to not repair the car. National said, "There is no paid invoice. Because the damages do not exceed the total loss threshold there is no actual cash value or salvage." Chase says they will not guarantee that they will pay National for the damages to the rental car even though Chase Sapphire is a primary provider for CDW in the case of car rentals. National has told me that they intend to sell the damaged rental car as is at auction. Chase has additionally requested a salvage invoice or a paid receipt for when National sells the car. National says they will never provide the sales receipt because they are the owner of the car and they can do whatever they want, according to a National claims specialist. Most of the articles you see in a Google search with questions pertaining to credit cards that provide primary insurance say it's a pretty good option; however this claim has turned out to be a mess. There is barely any communication happening between Chase Sapphire and National; hardly any cooperation between a credit card company and a car rental company. National keeps recommending I contact my car insurance company, Geico, however I don't have collision coverage through Geico. I think this experience is showing me that car rental companies are used to a certain lower standard of document verification from insurance companies like Geico and a higher degree of scrutiny from credit card companies. When I try to convey to National the required documents that the credit card company needs, National responds in petulant threats of invoicing me for over $16K in repairs or sending the invoice for the repair estimate to a collections company.

    I would like to inquire about any advice you are able to offer. Thank you for your time!
     
    #1
  2. johnbaker

    johnbaker Moderator
    Staff Member Advocate

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2014
    Messages:
    514
    Likes Received:
    827
    @rjin228 I don't know of any insurance company that will pay out on a "just trust us" claim which is what National is trying to do. They don't want to prove that the repair amount was actually $16k or that they lost $16k on the sale of the car. Until they do that, no insurance company is going to pay and I'm pretty sure that no court will issue a judgement.

    It might be time to get a lawyer on this one given the amount.
     
    #2
    joycexyz and technomage1 like this.
  3. Joe Farrell

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    If National cannot prove their damages by providing receipts - and does not minimize the damage in a commercially reasonable manner - then they are not going to recover what they claim - its that simple.

    If someone sues you for damage to their vehicle - they need to prove that damage by a preponderance of the evidence - if they play hide the ball or refuse to make reasonable commercial efforts to reduce the damage then they risk getting nothing - or a significantly reduced recovery.

    Look, Chase Sapphire is not an insurance company - but I bet their CDW claims are processed by an insurer. If a reasonable carrier will not pay damages - you should not either - thats tip off the claimant is not being commercially reasonable.

    PS: This is not a 'collision' claim through your personal auto insurance. This was not your 'insured vehicle.' You damaged someone else's property while driving - thus - your property damage coverage applies - not Collision or Comprehensive.
     
    #3
    jsn55 and rjin228 like this.
  4. Joe Farrell

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    This is a copy of the same post you made called 'National Car Rental.' Look there.
     
    #4
  5. technomage1

    Staff Member Forum Director

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,725
    Likes Received:
    2,826
    Threads have been combined.
     
    #5
  6. Barry Graham

    Barry Graham Administrator
    Staff Member Forum Director

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2015
    Messages:
    701
    Likes Received:
    674
    You have a credit card that provides damage insurance. In my opinion (and speaking from experience of a claim using such insurance with a different card provider) it's up to Chase to pay you and for Chase and National to work together behind the scenes to work on the details if National is making it unreasonably difficult for you which, based on what you've told us, I think is the case. Use the Company Contacts link above to find a contact for National to help speed things along.
     
    #6
    jsn55 and Neil like this.
  7. rjin228

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    7
    Hi Joe -

    Thanks for the comment.
    You mentioned "PS: This is not a 'collision' claim through your personal auto insurance. This was not your 'insured vehicle.' You damaged someone else's property while driving - thus - your property damage coverage applies - not Collision or Comprehensive."
    Yes, this is not a "collision" claim through my personal auto insurance. And my auto insurance doesn`t have CDW since my creditcard Chase Sapphire offers primary CDW coverage. Does it mean my auto insurance should cover the damaged rental car through my property damage insurance or still Chase Sapphire?

    Thanks for your help.
     
    #7
  8. sas80

    Staff Member Advocate

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,689
    Likes Received:
    1,899
    I get what Joe is saying.

    Since national wont pony up proof of their loss, payments, etc, and Chase wont pay without proof, it's time to say to National "Listen, I want this claim to be settled and you guys to be paid what you are owed, but you have made that impossible and left me without any way to settle it. Since this is the case, you are going to have to sue me to get this money. Let me remind you that, in a lawsuit, you will, in fact, have to provide proof of your expenditure, and those are going to be the exact same receipts that Chase needs in order to pay you out. Your call."

    And then do a mic drop and walk away with style.
     
    #8
    joycexyz, jsn55, Patina and 2 others like this.
  9. sas80

    Staff Member Advocate

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,689
    Likes Received:
    1,899
    It would be WELL worth to to ask your insurance company this exact question. from my experience with Geico, they will probably say no, but worth and ask.

    If they say yes, you are going to run into the same issues with them. No documentation of loss, no payout of insurance. National needs to document their losses
     
    #9
    jsn55 likes this.
  10. Joe Farrell

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    Here is the answer:

    You have three types of insurance in an auto policy:

    1. Collision - this covers damage to your car when you are driving it.
    2. Comprehensive - this covers damage to your car when it is not moving.
    3. Liability / property damage - this covers damage to someone else's property [like a rental car] or to someone's person.

    Second:

    Chase is primary. There is no reason to report it to your carrier. Chase requires the claim to be closed within 365 days - so there is a time deadline.

    There are things to tell National here - and most of them have been described in other threads.

    bascially you tell national: "I cannot provide reminbursement for your loss without proof. So far, you refuse to repair the vehicle and wish to wholesale it for parts. I'm not sure that is a proper mitigation of damages, but given most times the value of the average vehicle used in a rental business is less than $16,000.00 - that damage would be reduced by salvage value you receive. I want to settle this claim but you are not taking commercially reasonable steps to resolve this matter. Refusing to provide my insurer required information delays your payment and runs the risk of a laches defense in the future."

    [so please provide me make, model, year and mileage of the vehicle. . . so it can be looked at in terms of value - the math is simple: if it was a compact corrolla which had 10,000 miles on it, and was 2 model years old, then assume its worth $16,000 now, and that salvage value is $3000 - then National is entitled to $13,000. End of story.
     
    #10
    jsn55, Neil, rjin228 and 2 others like this.
  11. sas80

    Staff Member Advocate

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2016
    Messages:
    1,689
    Likes Received:
    1,899
    just copy and paste and hit send on what Joe said :)
     
    #11
    jsn55 likes this.
  12. technomage1

    Staff Member Forum Director

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,725
    Likes Received:
    2,826
    A Laches defense - since I had to look it up - is one that is based on unreasonable delay.
     
    #12
    Joe Farrell likes this.
  13. rjin228

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    7
    Joe - Thanks again.
    The car is a 2016 Buick Lacross with 4,500 miles on it. Chase said the Kelly Blue Book value of the car is $22,500. Chase also said that the estimated cost of repair was at the cusp of the car being salvage so National would either have to provide the invoice for the repair or provide the salvage invoice. National is saying that this isn't a salvage situation and since they provided the estimate of repair, they will not be providing further documentation to Chase Sapphire. On Wednesday, Chase said they are going to write up a proposal on my behalf and send it to National and see if National accepts the proposal. Should I just wait to hear back from Chase or be more proactive and speak with national?
     
    #13
  14. technomage1

    Staff Member Forum Director

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,725
    Likes Received:
    2,826
    Personally, I'd let the two companies figure it out since it appears Chase is trying to represent you. I would ask chase what the proposal is and if there are any out of pocket costs for you.

    If national continues to stonewall then I'd suggest writing to their executive contacts.
     
    #14
    Patina and rjin228 like this.
  15. Jessica Monsell

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Messages:
    52
    Likes Received:
    103
    My auto claims expert writes: I think an estimate for the damage would be necessary for sure. Furthermore, I think an adjuster from the insurance company would have to do their own estimate to verify the costs listed on the rental company’s estimate. Other than that, I don’t know why the insurance company would require proof that the damage was repaired. Seems to me they shouldn't care if the vehicle was repaired as long as there is no way the damage from this incident could be filed on a separate claim. Meaning the insurance company will make sure they aren’t paying for repairs from the same incident multiple times. I don’t see how an insurance carrier could refuse payment to an owner of a vehicle, regardless if it is a company or individual, because the owner does not want to repair the vehicle.
     
    #15
  16. Neil

    Neil Moderator
    Staff Member Advocate

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2014
    Messages:
    7,862
    Likes Received:
    8,500
    But they still aren't required to pay anything without some type of proof of the loss and cost estimate?
     
    #16
  17. Joe Farrell

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    you start using words like that they refer it to counsel - and they look at the file and tell the recovery unit that they are not using commercially reasonable methods to recover damages - and to give Chase the information they are looking for --

    You are responsible by contract to reimburse the 'victim' for their loss. But what actually is the loss is subject to many many variables - and simply deciding to total car and sell if for salvage may be the easiest way - but that may not entitle you to a 100% recovery. And if you do something to increase the amount of loss' simply for convenience, then you will not recover 100 cents on the dollar.
     
    #17
  18. rjin228

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2016
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    7
    I`m with you. Chase said they may not pay for the claim if National doesn`t send the documents that Chase need which is a salvage invoice or a paid receipt.
     
    #18
  19. Joe Farrell

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    thats how it works. . .. the insurer / CDW payer [Chase] is going to want to verify the cost estimate, is going to want to see the vehicle and determine for themselves the damage.

    There is NO reason to force anyone to repair a vehicle. And @Jessica Monsell - I don't think thats what is going on here.

    But the question is clearly one of value - value of the vehicle, valuve of salvage - value of cost of repair. If National wants $16,000, which is the cost of repair, but they intend to salvage the vehicle for $3000 - and it was only worth $14,000, then if they sue - they're not getting $16,000 - they are only entitled to $11,000 [$14,000 - $3000] plus a reasonable cost of towing and disposal. I think that National wants its cake and eat it too - get the money to repair, but not repair and dispose of the vehicle and then keep the salvage money too - and thats not what they'd be entitled to in a court of law. . .
     
    #19
  20. Joe Farrell

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    1,330
    Likes Received:
    2,468
    Here is the other problem - National does not have to fix the car, but if they don't - and its not driveable without repair - no loss of use, no diminshed value -

    With a $16k claim - Chase's adjuster is going to want to know pre-damage value of the car, cost of repair, get a couple of estimates, and they're going to take a really hard look at totalling it - whats base model 2 year old Ford Focus worth bought at wholesale with no warranty?

    If Chase totals the vehicle - then they're going to want title - so THEY can salvage it - everyone knows what these cars are worth nothing when they are depreciated out. That's why they rarely get wholesaled anymore - what happens to rental cars today is:

    1) the car renters sell them at their own yards - they so little for them wholesaled that all the extra expense is worth it - or
    2) they get sold to second tier local rental companies and local Enterprise locations - or
    3) they get given back to car dealers, who give them away basically to dealers who CPO them if they are decent -
    4) only in the instance of that maroon outside maroon inside, velour upholstery Ford Focus or Chevy Cobalt will they get wholesaled out to any sucker who will buy them for the inner city car yards where they charge 24% interest with payments coming weekly.
     
    #20

Share This Page